You can use your computer to solve it, without being on their project. You'd have the same chances as on the project, but if you win, you'd get the full prize.

They make it sound like calculating together will increase everybody's chances of winning, but it won't.

Sure, if you know how to write a program to do it. If I understand correctly, that is what the admin is contributing. He brings the application (and the BOINC server to host it), we bring the crunching power.



Really? I must have missed that.

No, but he does supply the app that attempts to solve the puzzle. I didn't read anywhere that any software comes with purchase of the game itself. I'm under the assumption that the 'definition files' come only into play in the context of the BOINC project, not the game. As mentioned on the site, once you buy the game, you have to manually create the file yourself, a tedious operation considering you'll be inputting 256 lines for each piece and a typo would change the whole puzzle.

This point should be written in very bold letters on the project's homepage, and there should be a note here on BOINCstats and in the sign-up list in BAM!, that this is not a "just attach and crunch"-project.

I was just wondering if there was a charter of some kind defining which projects should be included in BOINCStats?

I'd have thought that a project where you HAVE to buy something (rather than donate) was generally against the principles of BOINC. I know there are some projects that are a bit commercial (TMRL springs to mind) but at least you do get virtual credit for doing them and it doesn't cost you more than your own computer resources.

I'm not against Eternity as such, it's up to you if you want to pay and take your chance, what I am against is having it advertised along with all the other, more worthwhile, real scientific projects.

As a team (I'm speaking for myself here, not on behalf of the team) we try to be the highest producers in the UK. With this project we can't as we will not ask our members to buy something just to participate in a project.

Unfortunately, as BOINC becomes more widespread I can see the time when a lot more companies see the potential revenue that can be generated by similar means and projects.

It may be a good time to 'nip this in the bud' and remove it from the 'Active Projects' list and/or create another list with commercial projects so we can decide more easily which projects are worthwhile scientifically speaking.

Just my 2penneth worth! Rant over!

Real scientific projects? How does Chess960 fit in to that? And when RCH finishes in a few months, they are moving to a Sudoku project.

IMO, they should all be listed equally, and it is up to each individual to decide the merit.

As for buying things, heck, almost all of us had to buy our computers to sun BOINC.

All this said and done I wonder what is to prevent the project manager from saying his wifes computer ,his buddys computer was the one that cracked the puzzle?
What verification do you have? Seems that much money brings out the greed in people no matter how much integrity he seems to have. Not saying the project manager is going to do this but again how would anyone know?

Yah, all this seems to amount to a LOT of wasted cycles for scientific/academic purposes (being that, at most, only one cruncher will benefit financially from this project, and probably none will) and a LOT of money for the puzzle maker. What a shame and loss for BOINC as a whole if this project attracts crunchers in any significant number - thousands or tens of thousands of BOINCers throwing their cycles out the window, all for a very, very small shot at a jackpot. There's an old saying: "Someone's going to win the lottery - just not you." And it's true, basically, and I would think an intelligent community such as this one would be able to see through this. You might as well just turn off your CPUs for the next 17 months if you plan to dedicate time to this project, because you don't have a snowball's chance in hell of accomplishing anything.

The bottom line is the project is USING, yes, using - as in mis-using - the BOINC community as a whole for, largely, the admin's own good. Yes, fine, he's splitting the prize (if anyone from this project even wins it) with one other person. But basically he's pooling the resources of THOUSANDS for the good of, at most, TWO. And if you read the contest rules, it says that solutions will be accepted until the end of 2008 and datestamped in order of receipt. At that point, they will "open" the entries, and whoever solved it FIRST wins. Period. So if you're the second one to solve the puzzle, sorry! No bananas for you. So if ANYONE outside this project solves it first, the entire eternity project is WORTHLESS. And here's the best part: so that folks will keep buying the $60 puzzle and throwing away their cycles for as long as possible, the winner won't be revealed until the end - EVEN if someone solves it on day 1 of the contest. Which is just borderline dishonest, in my opinion. If the contest were truly honest with participants, it would end the minute the solution was submitted. To drag it out is just to give others false hope that they can still win.

I'm not saying this is a hoax or a scam - I actually can believe that there's real prize money. But I do think it IS a joke and an insult to the useful purposes of BOINC. BOINC in general pools the resources of the many for the good of the many. THIS project pools resources for the good of the VERY FEW. An absolute travesty, manipulation and warping of the system, all fueled by the lure of the almighty dollar. If you plan to turn your valuable cycles over to this project, then, IMHO, you're a sucker and have sold out to someone else's greedy motives. This project represents greed and will only drain resources from BOINC's admirable scientific and academic endeavors. But hey, they're your cycles - throw them out the window if you want.

P.S. I agree wholeheartedly. This project's aims, IMO, are nowhere near worthy of being considered on a par with other projects. They're using a non-profit platform to advertise an entirely for-profit enterprise, which is completely against the spirit of BOINC. If they want to advertise, let them PAY FOR IT and assume the financial risk that comes with running a for-profit venture. There are millions if not billions of places to advertise for things such as this - go find them! As far as I'm concerned, this project is one giant spamming of the BS community and should be removed.

You and I may find those unworthy of crunching (and I agree, those projects don't interest me at all), but at least they're still academic/intellectual in nature and are NOT, to my knowledge, generating any profit and abusing the system. It's clear that eternity is entirely about money, and that no one gives a damn about the intellectual underpinnings to solving the puzzle. THAT is the difference, and I think that should be the criteria for accepting new projects - and, preferably, removing old ones that don't meet the standard.

Y'know, some people think something similar about SETI. But let's not get into that discussion right now

Well, that's Willy's decision...

Well, yah, LOL - but whether the project will or will not succeed isn't the point. For me, the intention of the project is the most important thing. I honestly think I would rather catapult my CPU off the roof of my house than use it to help some greedy little person win a million bucks. Oh, and I'm no probability wiz (really), but if I'm figuring this correct - if 100,000 crunchers enter the contest, then isn't the admin's chance of winning 100,000 times greater than any of the crunchers' chances? NOW how interesting does the project sound, and how pitiful the likelihood of any one person getting anything out of it???

There is nothing wrong with a BOINC project, who's goal is profit.

For example, a company uses BOINC (and us) to create a cure for cancer. With that cure, they make billions of dollars. Good for them! They get rich and I get a cure. So what if I have to pay for the cure? Without the company doing what it did, the cure wouldn't exist.

Or let's say it is some science project that leads to creating an automobile technology that allows 150 MPG (or whatever). Yes you still have to buy the car from company B when available if you want to use the technology directly. But regardless, you have helped reduce oil consumption and pollution. You and your family (and their children) still benefit by the crunching you contributed.

Yes Zombie 67 as you state there is nothing wrong "for profit" however what picantecomputing is saying is this is for "GREED" and you and I won't benefit a bit by a cure for cancer or 150mpg by running this project and though I am all for free speech and open access I think a line has to be drawn somewhere and Eternity2 may have crossed that line.

Your analogy is very weak, and I think you're ignoring parts of what I've already said. If a project's intention is to cure cancer or solve the energy crisis - great! Fantastic! Those are good intentions, and for the benefit of the many. Now, if that company plans to turn those good intentions into corporate profit, then it's a slightly different story, and it's up to each BOINCer to decide whether they want to dedicate their cycles to, ultimately, lining someone else's pockets as a secondary effect of the project. But AT LEAST there is a benefit for the greater good there, and I don't see any substantive relationship between a cure for cancer and this ridiculous excuse for a project (eternity). Eternity is clearly ENTIRELY ABOUT MONEY, and there's nothing more to it. True, it's still up to every individual to decide whether to participate or not, and I really wouldn't care if I didn't know that cycles dedicated to eternity would rob the rest of the system of a portion of its resources - and all for essentially nothing.

So let's be clear - I wasn't suggesting profit is the root of all evil. But not all for-profit projects are on the same level, as far as intent, and it's laughable to compare researching a cure for cancer with chasing some wildly unlikely jackpot. In my book, benefits for the many outweigh benefits for the few, and eternity is nothing more than greed finding its way into the system. I guess it had to happen sooner or later, but I agree with UBT - Mikeejones that we need to keep this kind of nonsense from corrupting such a great concept. If someone wants to start a BOINC-for-profit grid somewhere, then let them. But allowing this kind of crap into the same system as a true scientific endeavor that seeks to benefit all mankind is a huge mistake, and we'll all regret it later. If you can't see the distinction, then I'm afraid we have nothing to talk about, and I'll let others decide for themselves.

IMO, if you want a chance at a million bucks, go to your local store and buy a lottery ticket. It'll only cost you a buck, you'll be just as (un)likely to win, and you won't be withholding resources from true scientific discovery in the process.

picantecomputing was clearly talking about profit:





What I wrote was in response to the idea that for-profit BOINC projects are not worthy of being listed on BOINCstats. My point is that there is nothing wrong with for-profit projects, and that profit should not be a consideration for listing/not listing projects here.

Willy needs to put various polls together about this project on all the issues discussed here..... I think THAT would be popular as this seems to be an emotional subject.

Yes, congratulations - I'm busted. OBVIOUSLY I had been talking about profit, and I wasn't hiding that at all (and P.S., notice I said "entirely for-profit," not "marginally for-profit" ). When you then brought up the distinction between a for-profit project that also benefits humanity and a nonsense for-profit project like eternity, I made it very clear, from my point of view, what the difference is. Look, if you're going to ignore the content of my posts, and you're just going to try to "nail" me and hang me on my words, then I don't think that's very constructive. Of course I was talking about profit, but the discussion then got a bit more subtle. In any case, if it's not already clear from my last post, then I'll say it again: IMHO, if it's a project like eternity that's all about profit, I think it's not worthy of inclusion. If it's a project that's marginally about profit but also has huge potential benefits for all mankind, then it's definitely worthy of inclusion, and each BOINCer will have to decide whether or not to participate.

If you're saying that profit shouldn't be a factor at all, then where do we draw the line? Does BOINC accept every pet project that comes along looking to make a buck (or a million) using whatever dubious means they can come up with? To say that profit shouldn't be a factor is to deny that there are those who would gladly abuse the system, assuming they could find a way to do so - and I think eternity has, and is probably just one of many that will make the attempt. If BOINC lets every special interest (for the benefit of the few) corrupt the system with greedy, self-interested schemes, then it will cease to be what it is today, and we'll all be much the worse for it. To make a flat-out statement that profit doesn't matter is to live in denial of what will happen within BOINC if we choose to ignore profit motives altogether - valuable resources will be wasted, and the spirit of cooperative discovery will be, like so many things, corrupted and tainted by greed. I'm not sure how you can deny that with a straight face.

Agreed! I'd be REALLY interested in seeing where the community stands on all this.

This is really up to the individual cruncher to decide. There's really little to be gained by finding bunches of primes on PrimeGrid, it's largely just a contest of world records and fame, but there's no controversy about that being listed.

BOINC is, and ought to be, usable by anyone. If someone wants to use their computer to gamble their cycles for money, why should we stop them? It doesn't make any sense to censor something based on our own reasons rather than the the reasons of the people actually donating the resource. It's not apparent this project runs malicious code, I've tried to explain why this project requires people to buy something, and I've also given a link to BBC about this. By the looks of the search, it's likely this puzzle would be much easier to solve with the aid of computational resources. If someone buys this puzzle and realizes that, then the BOINC project provides an easy method for them to do so.

I'm not saying this project is more useful or important than others, or trying to defend whether the project admin will keep his word. But I can actually trust the community to put their resources into the projects they think is most useful. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't really see this project as "stealing" any real portion of the entire computational pool available to BOINC projects. Not many people actively look out for new projects every time they spring up. A surprising number attach with one or two projects and then leave it. This project is like going to buy a lottery ticket, I mean you buy something and you see the huge million dollar prize written in big letters at the top, and as such, I don't think people are going to be misled into thinking they can easily get something out of this.

I always like to think of new projects not as diluting the existing pool of resources, but as a new vector where people can join the BOINC community. If the puzzle becomes successful, it is likely people will be looking for ways to obtain a solution. They could by chance come across this BOINC project while doing so. Naturally, when they download BOINC and realize it has uses beyond Eternity, they may attach their computers to other projects as well. They might not even continue to gamble for money when they find that there is protein research to be done, aliens to be found, and big prime numbers to be discovered.

Basically, as long as projects are up-front about what they do and don't do anything malicious with the computer, then it should be listed and the participant should have the opportunity to learn about the project themselves and have a choice about what to participate in. Its not like we're forcing projects down people's throats just by having stats on it here.

My 2 cents.

?? I never said you were. In fact, that post wasn't even a response to anything you posted. It was in response to JRenkar. He said you weren't concerned about profit, but rather greed. I was disputing his POV. So no, I wasn't trying to "nail" you either.



Saying "does BOINC accept" is like saying "does a screwdriver accept". They are both just tools, to be applied however the user chooses. The tool doesn't get to have an opinion on how it is used.



Abuse the system? How is something like this hurting Rosetta@Home? Perhaps it will expose new people to BOINC, who came for the lotto ticket but may stay for the other projects, once they see the full BOINC project universe.

And no, I don't think profit or greed (whatever that is) should be *any* kind of hurdle to running BOINC projects, or having them listed here. The more projects, the better. Let each project stand or fall on its own merits, judged by us crunchers.

Then we just plain disagree. I'm not here to cram my opinions down people's throats, just to say my peace. And I think I've basically said it. I personally think it's sad for BOINC to turn into what amounts to a gambling platform, and yes - I do think running crap like this takes away from the other projects. And I do think there should be a line between projects that are purely greed-based and those that actually aim to accomplish something that doesn't purely line someone's pockets. But, everyone has the right to decide where their cycles go, so far be it from me to tell anyone else what not to do.

As far as people coming to BOINC to crunch eternity and finding other projects - yes, maybe in some small degree. But even more likely in my opinion is someone making a lot of money off of this type of project and then proliferating ways to turn a buck using the system. So in a year or two maybe we've got 10 or 20 "projects" running for gambling or other similar purposes, completing muddying the spirit of cooperative discovery upon which BOINC was founded - and THAT will cast a cloud of negativity and doubt over BOINC and cause many to question its benefits - and choose NOT to participate, period. And that WILL steal a significant portion of computing power from other projects. You have a lot of people coming here because they want to do something GOOD and participate in scientific/academic discovery. Throw gambling into the mix, and I'll bet (no pun intended) you'll have many newcomers wondering just what the hell BOINC exactly is. There's a shared ideology surrounding BOINC's objectives within the community, I think, and I don't think it mixes well at all with gambling and greed. Throw those in the mix, and BOINC is all the sudden not so pure in its aims. I'm not naive enough to think that that won't happen. I hope you'll be happy with that, because that's what's coming.

One more thought. This is a little out there, but what if someone approaches BOINC with a project that has entirely ill purposes? I'm totally just making this up, so please don't focus on the idea itself. But what if a rogue terrorist group wants to use BOINC to calculate the best way to kill the most Americans using the least amount of resources? Don't think there wouldn't be plenty of people in other countries willing to ante up their cycles for that. Does BOINC "let each project stand or fall on its own merits" for something like that? Yes, I'm being a bit sensationalist intentionally to make a point. But BOINC could be exploited for even less desirable purposes than simple greed. Where's the line then? I think it's not the greatest idea to just say "all comers welcome," when their intentions may be dubious or even just plain evil. Decide whatever you want - I do think it's something for the community as a whole to consider before just simply enacting an open-door policy.

Fair enough.



Again, that's like asking if screwdrivers will let themselves be used in a particular way. Both are just inanimate tools. There is no "letting" about it. If it's illegal activity, then it is up to the governments of the world to enforce their laws. Otherwise, anyone can use BOINC however they see fit.



There are no people with *any* authority, controlling who uses BOINC or how. There is no "door" to have a policy about.

Admittedly I know almost nothing about how BOINC is administered or whether someone does or does not have the ability to prevent projects from participating (I'd actually love it if someone who does know would comment on that - is there a committee or something that decides which projects are and are not included?). At the very least, I do know that there are those at Berkeley and BOINCstats and the other related sites who can control whether projects are listed among the others. So I think you're at least partly wrong - there IS a type of permission by site admins that allows projects exposure to the community, which is about the only way you're going to get people joining in significant numbers.

And good luck getting the "governments of the world" to focus on stopping ill-conceived algorithms on BOINC. To say that they are responsible is to remove all accountability from the BOINC community - which is fairly IRresponsible IMO. That's like saying, well, the guy across the street looks like he's building a doomsday device, but that's the government's responsibility, not mine. Come on! If BOINC has no right to deny a project based on its intentions, then something is seriously wrong - whether gambling or something more sinister is the issue. To pass off responsibility to someone else is typical of today's world - but that doesn't make it right, or smart, for that matter.

Okay, just for argument's sake, let's remove BOINC from the equation and say a terrorist group approaches some mega-foundation requesting funds to research the best way to kill Americans. Are you saying that the foundation, providing the means to accomplish the research, has no right to say what happens with their resources?! Ridiculous! And that it's not their responsibility to stop something underhanded that might be going on - that it's the government's responsibility? Absurd! BOINC has a right - and a DUTY to the community and mankind as a whole - to somewhat (and hopefully very rarely) control what gets done with their platform, even if it's only by restricting exposure to projects that have less-than-pure intentions.

We've sort of gone off on a terrorism tangent here, but the point regarding eternity is the same - if the project is deemed to be an abuse of the system and not for the common good, then I personally feel that the "powers" that be have a right to restrict projects from participating - or at least from getting free advertising. Just to be clear, I'd LOVE it if this never had to happen - but if garbage is getting introduced into the system, then it needs to be treated like garbage and be thrown out.

It's up to David Anderson if a project is listed or shown on the news on official BOINC website. It's up to Willy if a project is listed on BOINCStats/BAM. Same for any project list / stats site.

But, anybody may download BOINC server code, install it, learn how it works, and use it to distribute malware. There is nothing anybody can do to take the project down, not even Berkeley. It's up to each individual to attach (and in this example, get infected) or not.

Also, note there are lots of BOINC-freaks who somehow find new projects before they're listed anywhere. I think they search the web for common text found on project front pages. I recently set up a project to do some tests and over 20 people joined the day after...