This case is different because you are directly generating money. In other projects it's hard to set a price value to your contributions.

.... and the value added by the researchers subsequent activities - the researcher paid for by the Project. Can be untold millions, ease of suffering from medical conditions such as Aids, Cancer, MS .... list goes on .... is potentially immense. Its always the intangibles that make a Project - its what makes BOINC viable and successful.

Want to cost PrimeGrid? Say 10,000 equivelants crunching 7x24 at 500w an hour. You are looking at $800,000 plus to find numbers rarer than the proverbial rocking horse whatsit. Are we saying the whole of PrimeGrid is not cost effective therefore shut down? Good luck with that one.

Of course cost is a factor, sily to say its not, but the intangibles are what make a Project and what makes BOINC cost effective. However, at the end of the day you have to get them crunching, it has to be fun in order to effect that donation. Its not a simplistic cold calculation, there is way more to it than that - and telling them to shut down for a year is more cost effective aint it rofl

I agree with you but what will happen if they add a separate application to the existing project but GRANTING CREDITS for it?

If you choose not to add Donate@home to your stats, will you be able in that case (previously described) to differentiate one "type of credit" from the other one?

That would be unfortunate but as you say, it will be impossible to differentiate the credit, kind of like differentiating CPU and GPU credit (which I would like).

Indeed, GPU credit has messed up the whole system


I mostly agree with Zydor... the Boinc community has grown for over 12 years (if you count S@h clasic) and I think it's on their own to decide if they want to participate (or not), and to criticize (or not) projects that might not be good for the well being and future of the Boinc itself... which, in the end, it's what should be important on this subject: that these "doubtly" projects, whatever they want (crack passwords, generate money, results not share for free...) do not harm the Boinc system!

I was under the impression that the purpose of a Statistical site was to run statistics efficiently and to the benefit of all. It is a shame that politics has to be involved here for it has no place in a stats site. If one wishes to be involved in the development of BOINC and decide who should or should not run a BOINC project than that is the place to make decisions on this matter. If I don't like the contents of a site or if I think it is not efficient I choose another. Free-DC has the right approach, they include all stats irrespective what or why they run a project. Willy is right to question like we all do why we allow such a project to carry the name of BOINC but surely it is not the function of a stats site to Blacklist them for such action has a questionable result. This site already carries projects that is crunching with no apparent or questionable results, yet they exists, than why are we Blacklisting this one. Let the users decide what projects they wish to crunch for after all it is their equipment, their time and their money. Stats Sites should not dictate in my opinion. We have enough BIg Brothers who are watching already and try to tell us what to do every day...

Thats why this Site has a responsibility to remain non-judgemental if its to keep its Core Aims, and current very high reputation for objectivity intact. Just as the Media got themselves in a mess by direct meddling into areas of opinion, and strayed from a strict regime of fact reporting, so that presient danger lurks in the wings for BOINCStats. It MUST remain neutral, and only stepping in to act against Illegal activities - as the other sites do.

I agree totally there is a great judgemental danger surfacing - not just because on the Donate@Home thing - but the wider chasim that opens up when going a judgemental route.

Doesnt mean to say The Site cant express its opinion - of course it can, just open up the equivelant of an Editorial Column where - quite properly - such views and concerns can be voiced, editorial columns are powerful beasts in themselves. But do so with the backdrop of a reputation for utter objectivity driven by legal or illegal, not driven by premption imposing personal opinion onto others giving them no other choices. Isnt freedom of (legal) choice what most of us stand for?

So should this Site ..... especially this Site.

Regards
Zy

maybe that's why most of Donate@home users are crunching for it !!

The problem IS NOT the responsability or the reputation of this site, the problem is indeed the responsability and the reputation of Donate@home and GPUGrid



BTW... I'm planning to lunch a BOINC project: grandma@home. Crunching for bitcoins, have to buy a wheelchair for my poor grandmother... isn't it a honorable purpose? Since I need the chair as soon as possible I'll grant double credits per second respect to all ther GPU projects

Go for it ..... although I have more faith that BOINCrs will consider it somewhat frivolous and it'll die quicker than a lit match under water - if it doesnt, well Grandma has got herself a new wheelchair, which is no bad thing at the end of the day.

A key aspect to all this that has been mentioned many times by many people, is this day and age of the Nanny State - which nearly all complain about - they then propose to enhance the Nanny State and ban it

Cant have it both ways, cant setup BOINC to give individuals freedom of choice, then promptly turn round and say "oh not that, thats not suitable for you". Ban the illegals for sure, but leave value judgements to the cruncher, there is a whole world of hurt going down the Nanny State route.

Regards
Zy

I really think yoyo should start his long planned Credits@Home, with an nci-App that grants 1MC per hour for nothing, or even for an alibi Uppercase. I wonder if those, that wish to have nasty projects included here will still want to have it spoil their stats. And "nasty" is by my definition stealing resources for nothing at all, like Goldbach, or that change very money for power consumption in less money for donation, like Donate, and with those action deprive projects with real apps (regardless of the futility of the science behind it, but scientific) from those resources.

I would like to have prime search eliminated as well, as it's imho just a pissing contest. But that's not a formal complaint, but one for the content, and Goldbach and Donate are formally wrong, because of no content at all.

IMO
stop looking at total credit for all projects
look at credits per project
so if someone types I have 1,000,000,000,000,000 credits and it only took me
2 days to get it, everyone can look down the stat page and say
oh you got them in yoyo credit at home, he give 1 million credits per hour.
my $0.02

Opening descriptive of BOINCstats on their Donate@Home team page at Allprojectstats:
"BOINCstats provides great user, host, team and country stats for all BOINC projects."

Reread those last 5 words. Sounding like hypocrisy to me now.

NM*

P.S.:Yaaayy, I can post now after waiting a week, which is more than the 3 days it says. Shows I joined on the 15th but I signed up on the 12th. Go figure.

The last three posts illustrate winderfully how we all crunch for different reasons, the one common thing is we are crunching as our hobby. Each has their own flavour on what constitutes a hobby. I for instance, see spending hour upon hour wacking a small white ball round a field flattened and planted at a cost of tens of million of dollars, a particularly silly and futile endeavour - then to top it all they actually pay up to thousands of dollars for the privelidge of doing so (probably obvious I'm no golfing fan rofl )

BOINC is akin to a fairground, we wonder round the stall holders selecting thier particular spin for whatever personal reason. We got there with (say) $25, and we know damn well there will be didly squat left when we leave, the Fairground stall holders will see to that.

I view it as another nail in the coffin of an increasingly sad world when I cant even choose the Project to Crunch, without someone telling me I'm dumb, blind, financially stupid, educationaly disadvantaged - list goes on, when its my hobby. Provided its legal, I'm entitled to do what I like as a hobby. Particularly as - like the fairground - I'm there anyway, so what the hell difference does it make what Project (Fairground stall) I crunch.

Life is not a long list of dollars and cents, often its full of intangibles - especially those strange concepts called hobbies and having fun. The latter two are hugely dependent on personal choice - many countries - one in particular - faught for decades / centuries to establish a society based on freedom of choice. Its more than a little strange some from that ilk then spend every waking hour try to rip down personal choice. Most countries dont have a Nanny State telling its occupants what they can or cant (as long as its legal) do for a hobby. Why should we do so ??

Regards
Zy

I find those being judgmental about Willy being judgmental amusing. I also find interesting those who consider BAM to be what Willy never stated it to be, but merely project their views of their own about it into reality. And then there are those who think that BAM is theirs or that it provides an essential service to their livelihood, even as if they had a right to it. Some also pretend to apply on a private effort as BAM the same rules normally applied to governments, all the way to the point of suggesting that they depend on it and that there is no other way of crunching for projects, blissfully ignoring that anyone can attach to any project using the BOINC GUI.

:
Once again we have people complaining because a certain project ( in this case Donate@Home ) is not included in Boinc Stats. This site is Willy's and as such he can administer it as he wishes. To those who object to this I suggest thy join another stats site and stop complaining on this site.

One of the disatisfied minority suggested that Prime Grid also be removed, perhaps this person hates maths, at least Prime Grid does produce new primes which does add something to the sum total of human knowledge. What good does Donate@Home do?

People are entitled to crunch whatever projects they like and rightly so, yet the very same person who insisted on their right to crunch any legal project, wants to deny Willy the same right to choose what projects he allows on his site.

To sum up, this is Willy's site and the moaners should get over it.

You presume too much. Yes Willy has the right to include what he wishes in the the Site - that is never in doubt, unless an individual has sawdust for brains (its a wholey diiferent question to the proposition that BOINC bans a particular genre - dont mix the two). Its also clear attatching to a Project does not need this Site - at least thats been my experience for the last few years. Willy asked for opinions, he's got them, anyone dont like them well, thats cool, its a free world, but dont ascribe negative motivations to everyones elses views as if they are devil incarnate just because they express something negative about the Site. There are no prizes for groping for a mythical high ground..

Personally I'll continue supporting BOINCStats as the premier Stats Site as I have for many many years, and will endeavour to contribute into making it better in whatever way I can if it will help Willy - like at present Beta testing the new site on Willy's behalf. At the end of the day, if he doesnt carry stats for a Project, I'll get them elsewhere (I joined Free-DC yesterday for that purpose), its hardly the deal of the Century.

However if he asks for views he'll get them ........... so get over it without the personal attacks. They are views no more, and certainly not the end of life as we know it if they differ from others views. I personally ascribe Willy with more sense than take them any other way.

I guess you never even read what's at the site. This is on the main page and is a summary.

On top of that there is a new expanded information page on the project. People should hold judgement until they learn and know all about it. I actually was very much against the whole bitscoins thing before I learned a lot more about it. It's actually a genius way of providing hack proof transactions of currency as well as double-spend proof. The mining part is what keeps it in-tacked. Once all the bitcoins have been 'mined' it becomes a fee based transaction network which will pay the then 'miners' (who are actually the maintainers of the integrity of the network) for their work. Read the page then post your opinions.
http://donateathome.org/project.php

NM*

I think the point being argued is about whether Willy carries stats for the project or not, and not about it's inclusion with BAM as that is a personalized service that he provides.


Credits are the scores in the BOINC world, as well as recognition of crunched work, and seeing as most everyone keeps track of them, having the correct numbers at all stat sites is imperative to avoid confusion. Both individuals and teams use them for for rankings and other things.
Only if all the major stat sites carry all the same project stats can confusion be avoided. Already the rankings of teams and individuals have diverged. So when one team member uses rankings from here and another use them from another stat site confusion entails. Just saying 'use the other stat sites to see your credit' will not work. This could become detrimental to the integrity of all rankings including percentages.

And what about the Shout Box. When someone declares he's reached X milestone or X place on his team or country, some may ask "is that according to BOINCstats or another stat site?" before saying "Congratulations".

NM*

I didnt come back on the PrimeGrid Comment ...

One of willy's overall criteria is the production of useful results, and in many ways measures it by the computations being kept or thrown away



There can be issues with that as a formal criteria, my comment pointed out that essentially thats what PrimeGrid does, aound 99,9999% of computations are thrown away. I did not say PrimeGrid has no useful output. Only a raving lunatic would suggest closing it on those criteria - thats not the point, in any selection process there needs to be consistency or a whole world of hurt ensues. That select criteria is not consistent.



Wouldnt disagree. Perhaps you would like to join the five of us currently crunching through the Generalized Fermat Prime Search (Sieving), where we are trying to complete the sieve John has asked help for over the last two months. At present I have two machines dedicated to it 7x24 (and have been for the last 10 days) attempting to "add something to the sum total of human knowledge". As at a few minutes ago, for N=4194304, we have got to 1670p with the target of p=9223,


Provide a researcher who will be working with the research labs on work to alleviate suffering from deseases such as Aids, Cancer, MS and Schizophrenia - and along the way ".... add something to the sum total of human knowledge..."


Then join in providing feedback Willy is looking for, not total destruction of all comment made. The whole point of a comment thread such as this, is to provide feedback. At present Willy is mulling over what he is going to do, and is canvasing opinions and facts, including on the BOINC Alpha mailing list. Comments here are meant to be proactive in giving food for thought, no more no less - as is expected in discussions of this nature. If Willy wants to take a comment on board, thats cool, if not, the world has not fallen over. However if the thread becomes a "Yes" fest of self glorification it does not help Willy one iota.

Why am I so proactive on the topic? My daughter is Schizophrenic, and there is a real chance this Project may help that area of research. So comments re my motivations being tied to credits can be placed where the sun dont shine.

I fully concur with NeoMetal's comment. Much is spouted about Bitcoin by many, and the content of their comment is clear they do not know the basis of the Bitcoin network, what its for, and how it works. Niether are they aware the network organiser WANT miners, its what keeps it secure. The Donate@Home Project taps into that need to get a medical Researcher. If individuals dont understand the true nature of Bitcoin or what the Project aim actually is PLEASE go find out - then comment, to do otherwise is pointless, causes confusion, and is of no help to Willy whatsoever.

Roses for my funeral please ....

Regards
Zy

[



Why am I so proactive on the topic? My daughter is Schizophrenic, and there is a real chance this Project may help that area of research. So comments re my motivations being tied to credits can be placed where the sun dont shine.

/quote]

I also have my own medical issues and I would like to pass on my best wishes to you both for the future.

I have looked at the Donate@Home but I did not join as it was linked to GPUgrid which I cannot join as I have the wrong brand of GPU.

I frequently wish I could crunch more but my machine is not up to it.

Kind was a kind thought, Thank You Jon ....

Its often hard to get meaning and motivation into the written word, misunderstandings easily occur.

Onwards and upwards, lets get the comments and opinions down for Willy to mull over

Regards
Zy

I must remind everyone that Donate is also a project to test beta applications for GPUGrid. In this case, it's testing an application for ATI GPUs for future use in GPUGrid.

As a matter of fact, mining Bitcoins for the master project in a beta project is perhaps a better way than mining symbolic credits.

The fact that Donate is also a beta project for GPUGrid must not be lost in this discussion. BAM carries other beta projects and they don't provide "useful" results, as their output cannot be trusted for the science of the project, but they are fundamental at validating new applications to produce useful scientific results.

And if a project like Donate does this while mining Bitcoins, I say it's a double whammy.

Why do projects who need beta tests set up a completely new project? Isn't it much simpler to have a setting in the preferences to allow beta work to be send to a user (opt-in). If I'm not mistaken, this is implemented in the BOINC webcode.

Not only would it not require setting up a new project but it's also much simpler for the users, who would have a much better overview. Projects could keep track of the credit granted for beta work and re-calculate it into the total when needed.

I totally agree, but some projects do spawn a beta project as a matter of fact. Until all project leaders realize this, the question of how to support beta projects in BAM remains.

The precedent, as seen by the presence of the active projects TestGrid and SETI beta, not counting retired beta projects, is that beta projects are welcomed by BAM. Now, this is not the justice system, but Willy's system, so you're not bound by precedent. But as a beneficent of your generosity, I'd appreciate some consistency, if for anything to make my life easier. So, if you're not going to include beta projects in BAM, my lazy mind would be spared having to consider exceptions to the rule if these two projects were removed too. But that's me and BAM is not mine.

Cheers.

And here are some other beta projects currently on BOINCstats:

Albert@Home
BOINC Alpha Test
RALPH@Home

Added:
Even some 'lone' projects could be considered alpha/beta projects. Some projects self describe themselves as such. Donate@Home is one of those projects. If fact they are/will be doing triple duty: testing apps, raising money while testing, to hire a new researcher (which is actually more efficient use of hardware than just testing to test), and then following/documenting said researcher's activities and progress at GPUgrid on the same project site. The FAQ has even more info. http://donateathome.org/forum_forum.php?id=2