Donate@Home up and running, Stats now exported

http://donateathome.org/

Regards
Zy

Hope to see it added after next daily update

Willy, when can we expect to see this project added?

Donate@home will probably not be added to the stats. Only real projects which do not discard the results of a computation will be added to BOINCstats. "Projects" which have no use other than to generate bitcoins/money will not be added.

Don't get me wrong, I can understand why donate@home exists, but I find it questionable that credit is granted for this. Allowing this will certainly lead to more bitcoin projects competing with each other by granting more and more credit and thereby displacing regular useful projects. Essentially, now there is a way to monetize YOUR computing time, it just goes into other peoples pockets. And that may not always be bona fide BOINC projects.

If projects really would like to generate bitcoins, I suggest they just add a separate application to their existing project site and not grant credit for it.

Also, "creating" money this way is highly inefficient. It would be much better to just donate some money instead of generating bitcoins. The real money they get for it is worth less then the electricity used to generate the bitcoins.

All this is not only my point of view but is shared by the BOINC team.

There is a lengthy discussion going on about projects like this and what to do with them in the mailing list. When that discussion ends I will make a final decision.

Thanks for the explanation, Willy. I will suspend the project immediately until a final decision is made. Don't really understand or care about the whole bitcoin thing, but if the credits don't show up here they're not worth having.

Or as an alternative you can support Stats sites, like FreeDC and their click ads, that have chosen to report stats and NOT sit in judgement of projects. It is a dangerous precedence Willy when YOU start making the decision of whether a project is worthwhile.

It is your site and obviously you will do what you wish, and what DA has told you to do.

This is nothing new, it was always the explicit policy of BOINCstats to only include projects that a) agree to be included and that b) do some real science. Goldbach was not included, as they just wasted CPU-power for absolutely futile UPPERCASE-junk. This one doesn't do any remotely useful work ad well, so it's not included. Both decisions are perfectly valid.

If anyone can tell me that the generation of those dubious bit-coins costs less money than simply donating the money direct, I will retract, and Willy will do so as well probably. But for now it looks just like a perfect waste of energy for nothing.

It is blatent Hypocracy on a Grand Scale for BOINC to allow a Site to operate whose sole aim was to break a software product and then jump all over not-for-profits for using the BOINC vehicle with Bitcoin. It is nieve on a Grand Scale to even imagine that the use of BOINC does not involve cash generation - of course it does! Any organisation with infrastructure costs are able to divert cash resource elsewhere as a result of BOINC useage.

As to moralising over Bitcoin - thats my business not DA's, I will not have my morals dictated to by anyone. Can Bitcoin be abused? Yes of course it can. So we go for the Dumb solution of blanket banning due to personal prejudice, hurting the very people BOINC is here to help. The fact that informal pressure is being brought to bare on people like Willie speaks mountains - you cannot legally ban the use of Open Source Software as long as its actual use in of itself is not illegal - and they damn well know it, thats why the pressure is surfacing using unwilling proxies like Willie.

There are many ways to express concern and displeasure - Blanket Banning is not one of them - especially when the banning involves external parties make judgements about my morals. I dont need BOINC playing mummy, I am capable of deciding what is or is not abuse of Open Source software, and if my decision over the legal use of Open Source Material is different - hard luck frankly, the Open Source regime was put in place for a reason - and abusive twisting like this is the classic it was meant to avoid.

Willie should not have been placed in this dilemma, its unforgiveable for BOINC to indirectly use Willie as a weapon, when they know they cannot legally ban Open Source software useage by Donate@Home. If this goes ahead, I will be leaving BOINC after a decade of crunching - the hypocracy and unwarrented pressure on third parties like Willie is unacceptable.

..... and Willie, if you do read this, you have my undying support and respect for your final decision. It was a situation you should not have been placed in to be used as a proxy weapon. In the chats "off line" with others who are against this move by BOINC, it appears to be a common view. So, whatever way you go, god speed and good luck with BOINCStats. Its just for me its the last straw, and I blame BOINC not you.

Regards
Zy

FWIW, I myself find that using BOINC to crack encryption keys by suspicious-sounding projects is more objectionable than those generating funding for another project through Bitcoin.

However, BAM accommodated the former projects by stating that and letting each user make his choice. So I'd consider it to be a fairer decision if the same choice were given about the latter projects.

Besides, Donate is also a beta test bed project for GPUGRID, so it's more than a purely "revenue"-generating project. Unlike the case that Willy described, Donate not only has ties with a reputable project, but it is not a frivolous one.



PS: I think that Willy is free to moralize and I will not moralize against his moralizing.

anybody read this on the Charity Engine on the BOINC web site.
http://boinc.berkeley.edu/dev/forum_thread.php?id=7225

Charity engine does not export stats

If GPUGrid wants (needs also) to rise funds, then Donate@home is a great idea but they can give back badges, like any other rising funds method, not credits

More, my opinion is that Donate@home, as an indipendent project, is dangerous to BOINC as a volounteer scientific reseach helping method: better including an application in GPUGrid, with badges instead of credits

BOINC is not our job, is our passion, we believe what we are doing is useful.... so we have the right to moralize (ok, not too much )

I think you all need to know that I was the one starting the discussion in the BOINC mailing list. DA doesn't (nor did he ever) force me to do "things".

Willie - from where I sit as a pure cruncher, I see Stats Sites as the mechanism that oils the core wheels of the BOINC system. IMHO a stats site has no place in deciding what is moral and what is not. It opens a huge pandora's box of potentially dubious decisions tainted by personal opinion. It should for sure, be hugely pro-active in filtering out the illegal activities, they are rightly decided by the Justices System not vigilanti acivities.

A newspaper's core job is to pass information not express subjective opinion, unfortunately these days its grossly tainted by Owner's political stance and the overiding need to generate shareholder funds. The end result of abusing that core responsibility to pass information by usurping the truth and presentation has result in the gutter media that exists in various places that we all come to loath in the end.

A Stats Site to be long term viable needs to be a straight purvayer of fact, a pole around which the Cruncher can base his or her activities. BOINC can be complex enough by its nature, exacerbated at times by misinformation spread by the illinformed for dubious reasons. If a Stats Site injects in that swirl subjective opinion based on the owner's views, we just end up with a talk fest.

BOINCStats has grown massively to be one of the cornerstones of BOINC, but with that comes a greater responsibility than personal views if it is to continue to mean something worthwhile to the cruncher. Its reputation is paramount, and that reputation has to be based on straight forward support for facts and legality, and stay away from straying into grey areas.

The Cruncher as a Group are perfectly capable of making their own judgements - at times in this Judgemental world of opinionated money seeking motivations, its a rare luxury. Systems and organisations will always try to cut corners, cheat, whatever phrase you want to use. Its on the back of sites such as BOINCStats not to allow that to happen by sticking rigidly to factual disemination, upholding the legality of situations, and staying away from controversy generated by private thoughts.

BOINCStats cant change the world, but it can make it a darn sight better place for a Cruncher by standing up to be counted as a Trusted Partner to Crunchers, not purveyor of opinion.

I empathise with your dilema, genuinely. I hope you take the long view not a personal view of the wholepiece.

Regards
Zy

I thank the ones who replied for their opinion. I do not thank the ones who PM-ed me with threats and compared me with all the dictators from the past, accusing me of communism, censorship and more (and if you're a real man, you would post these texts here).

It is indeed my personal opinion that the ones who can steer the people should protect them or the community from exploitation, exploitation which I can see coming when more and more money projects will emerge. Now that the cat is out of the bag and it's proven that BOINC can be used to generate real money I'm sure that others will follow. With just that little bit extra credit to get you crunching for them. It will mess up the whole system.

I still have a decision to make. About 20 people complained (which is 0.007% of the active crunchers), it seems most crunchers agree.

Because of filtering several projects already in the past (CzechNationalTeam project, Goldbach) I preferred in the last time another stats site which didn't decide for me which projects are worth to be included in global stats. Unfortunately, that site has an hardware issue at the moment

You are right Willie, the cat is out of the bag. Would you please explain why you posted the stats for Aqua which was a wholly commercial enterprise? They developed/marketed products based on the efforts of the BOINC crunchers. Nothing they got from BOINC was available in any form (except a commercial product) in the public domain.

Personally I would rather crunch something like Donate that is honest and it is funding a valid project that has far more potential than just developing a new processor for a single company.

Commercial projects can have useful results. The result of computations is not discarded.

Uppercase projects and bitcoin projects produce no useful results.

That's my concern too, do we really need another 50-100 Sub-Projects that do nothing but generate Money for the Main Projects ? People will start switching from the Main Projects that do the actual work to the Money Generating Sub-Projects just to get their MM's thus taking Resources away from the Main Project. I'm sure a lot of other Projects are keeping an eye on the Donate Project & if the Donate Project gets their way then there will be a mad frenzy to be a me too Money Generating Sub-Project.

As far as it will mess up the system I think that already has already been nicely accomplished by a few Projects already ...

OK, the money from the BTC are bad! Block them!

But, why the money from the Charity Engine are good?This is not the BOINC idea, this is a kind of renting the computers.

Currently we can work for money in (http://charityengine.com/charities/research):
Rosetta@home
Einstein@home
Africa@home/MalariaControl.net
Is it still BOINC?

Why "BOINC Development Team" is working with CE for earning money?


Money from BTC are bad, money from CE are "legit" and good - really?

Thats a little harsh For sure a fly-by-night Bitcoin based project is going to be a nightmare, and to be avoided. However do we ban the whole genre just because of a few bad guys? I think not. I would be extremely wary of a Project whose outcome was pure cash with a dubious justification, poor outcome records, run by a dodgy con merchant. What Donate@Home is giving is a well founded project that is run by a reputable organisation, and who are up front about what its there for and what it produces. No one can ask for more than that from a Project.

If a "standard" BOINC Project saves an organisation $XXXX due to crunchers efforts, and that cash is redistributed internally to enhance other aspects of their aims, there is no difference with a Bitcoin Project raising the same cash sum direct and funding (in Donate's case) a Researcher.

That there should be caution with cash generation Projects is a given, lots of bad guys out there, but to do a King Cnut and try to hold back the inevitable wave of these kinds of Projects is to shut off reality, rather than embrace the genre and develope how to deal with them. They are not going away, and we will not stop their development because its not against the terms and conditions of the Open Source Software Licence; but we can and should help keep an eye on the worst of the worst in the genre. That cant happen if the attitude is "cash is bad for BOINC, Bitcoin is cash, therefore Bitcoin is bad" .... the latter thought process is just a way of not dealing with the genre because its not fully understood, and doesnt comply with a normal way of a "standard" BOINC project - whatever the latter is.

Encourage innovation dont destroy it just because of a few bad guys around, and because its something new that resets previous set in stone expectations and deductions - all the genuine outcomes suffer. The latter is so wrong its unreal because the bad guys win by stiffling what is a genuine innovative way of supporting research. Remember the days of when BOINC was a bad idea? It was the evil doer on the block just because it did something differently, its not now. Embrace change wisely, dont stamp on it just because its different and some dont know how to deal with it or are afraid of it. Shutting eyes to reality, like King Cnut, gets us nowhere.

Regards
Zy

Okay Willie, you've convinced me. Open up enough of these types of projects and it could destroy the legitimate projects and ruin the benefits of BOINC for all.

I stand corrected!

You know, BAM is Willy's and he does what he pleases with it. Yet, he's quite reasonable and open to the opinions of others. I don't agree with some of his decisions, but I don't regard BAM as mine, but as his. He decided to allow the use of BAM to sign up for questionable key-breaking projects and stated that, but I just don't sing up for them. He decided that some projects are not ready for BAM, but I just add them manually to my hosts. It's not as convenient, but it's not the end of the world either. And, most importantly, I think, I don't pester him too much about it, much less insult or threaten him.

We're all big boys, no one has a right to BAM, the fruit of Willy's efforts and money. If we're not happy about it, we're free to pack and go. But we are not free to disparage Willy because we disagree with him. This is more than immature, but a disgrace that many adults resort to verbal violence or threat of violence to express their disagreement. This thuggery has no place anywhere in the real or in the virtual world.

Enough already and off of my soap box now.

I've been wondering how to say what I think about this, and Augustine has pretty much said it for me!

I will just add that Willy offers this site free to us. We do not have any right to judge him for taking a moral stand. We can disagree, we can post that we disagree, but we should do it with respect for differences of opinion. We definitely should not insist that he has to include all projects, even when it would go against any moral standpoint he has.

I'm sure there are stats sites that do include every project, so if BOINCstats doesn't satisfy a cruncher, they need to try one of the others.

Thanks Willy, this is YOUR site, not a business with shareholders. Keep up the good work.

If anybody here is running Donate@Home and has a way to somewhat-reliably know his computer power usage, please tell me the power used (in watts), your electricity costs ($/kWh), and the host ID on Donate@Home. Then I'll tell you if you're doing something remotely worthwhile, or if you would contribute more to GPUGrid by shutting the computer down and donating the saved electricity costs directly.

The power spin is an often quoted strawman. At the end of the day try telling crunchers to shut down their computers for a year and donate the savings .... its not happening. We all crunch for many reasons, and if pure economics was the sole arbitor, BOINC would still be struggling to get off the ground. Theoretical calculations are fine if all the crunchers are autonimous robots, they are not, they crunch for fun and sense of satisfaction as well, try costing that one - of course you cant, but the fun and satisfaction aspects of BOINC are one of its major planks and far far transend cold economics - thank goodness

Regards
Zy